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Post by sandman on Jul 4, 2023 2:09:04 GMT -5
In agreement. We went from a team that found hidden gems and developed players properly to... not giving them a chance and giving up on them entirely. I think we lost the script the last 2 seasons or so.
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Post by fenris77 on Jul 4, 2023 13:21:05 GMT -5
Objectively speaking, it's a failure of the FO to lose FVV, the heir apparent to the GROAT for nothing. However, man's getting LeBron money, GODDAMN. Strangely happy for him though. Undrafted and got that massive bag to babysit Jalen Green. It's an objectively ridiculous amount of money to lay FVV. I'm happy for the guy, I really am, but there's nothing the Raps could have done about that offer. Good for him, bad for the Raps, but nothing to be done.
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Post by Pseudonym on Jul 6, 2023 11:08:52 GMT -5
Objectively speaking, it's a failure of the FO to lose FVV, the heir apparent to the GROAT for nothing. However, man's getting LeBron money, GODDAMN. Strangely happy for him though. Undrafted and got that massive bag to babysit Jalen Green. It's an objectively ridiculous amount of money to lay FVV. I'm happy for the guy, I really am, but there's nothing the Raps could have done about that offer. Good for him, bad for the Raps, but nothing to be done. I watched Across the Spider-Verse recently... there is certainly a reality in which we move FVV at the deadline, tank, and have Wemby or Scoot instead of Dick. But still absurd money for FVV. Pretty understandable for the FO to think Houston was bluffing or whatever. However...we've lost what, a top 10 player in our franchise for nothing? Personally it's not even about Fred, it's just bad asset management. Can't spin it as anything but an L. BUT I'd rather have lost him than pay him the max. It could even be addition by subtraction, as they were less than the sum of their parts. Brooks, FVV and a young Jalen Green. Death of efficiency.
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Post by Pseudonym on Jul 6, 2023 11:09:45 GMT -5
Also it upsets me that an actual Toronto man's went to Boston. It'll pain me to see Banton develop at all there.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 8, 2023 21:01:28 GMT -5
John Wall is having private workouts in Vegas to try to get to a team this year. I didn't watch him on the Clippers but he seems like one who can double the call and set people up. Anyone want him?
No me neither.
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Post by sandman on Jul 9, 2023 10:39:04 GMT -5
Nowell has something intriguing about him. Some of the passes he makes just shows you his vision and how creativity.
I don't know, there's room to be optimistic there. I'm not expecting him to be more than a bench piece, but I'm hoping a quality, energy type guy who can give you good 15-20 minutes. Not this season but perhaps in 2 years.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 10, 2023 14:42:03 GMT -5
If we end up trading Siakam now as all the rumors swirl it will cement even more how utterly stupid it was last year not to tank when generational talent plus all NBA talent are waiting to be drafted and now might be terrible and then not even have a pick at the end of the season.
I just get more and more upset at this decision.
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Post by sandman on Jul 11, 2023 1:13:23 GMT -5
Sounds like a lot of issues stemming from the last 2 seasons.
Nurse had his own vision. Masai, perhaps went a bit MIA? He gave more of the reigns to Webster and he hasn't really been ready for this type of autonomy? Or it's a combination of both guys not really sure of the direction. Hopes for the likes of Spicy P and FVV to take next steps and Scottie to mesh well with them - which did not happen. I assume they thought OG would take a few extra steps to become a more star-level player, as well. Things ultimately did not mesh and ended up in the worst-case scenario rather than best-case scenario.
Still, by the trade deadline, they should have known what to do and where to go from there. Perhaps upper, upper management was pushing for playoffs more than anything? They don't want the hype train to die, yet?
Who knows but we've gotten used to seeing our team make good, solid moves the last 6-8 years. These mediocore, lack of vision moves are not par for the course.
I agree though, a top pick this year would have done wonders for our future and helped push us further. If the plan is Scottie, well, he needs another star-level talent to help.
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Post by haisan on Jul 11, 2023 1:19:20 GMT -5
I think maybe Masai and the FO didn't realize how much the Raptors teams of the last few years were greater than the sum of their parts. They had a lot of high-character guys who played hard together. But as individual pieces, they weren't nearly as good (or that's how the league saw them). So you get 48 wins and think "Great, we're really close to being contenders again." But in fact, not so much.
I'd feel a lot worse about not-tanking if we hadn't missed out on all the really interesting talent that slipped in this draft. I'm sure we could have scored a pick in the 20s for very little, and gotten a quality player out of it. But the Raptors haven't been good at finding hidden gems in quite some time.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 11, 2023 21:29:02 GMT -5
Sounds like a lot of issues stemming from the last 2 seasons. Nurse had his own vision. Masai, perhaps went a bit MIA? He gave more of the reigns to Webster and he hasn't really been ready for this type of autonomy? Or it's a combination of both guys not really sure of the direction. Hopes for the likes of Spicy P and FVV to take next steps and Scottie to mesh well with them - which did not happen. I assume they thought OG would take a few extra steps to become a more star-level player, as well. Things ultimately did not mesh and ended up in the worst-case scenario rather than best-case scenario. Still, by the trade deadline, they should have known what to do and where to go from there. Perhaps upper, upper management was pushing for playoffs more than anything? They don't want the hype train to die, yet? Who knows but we've gotten used to seeing our team make good, solid moves the last 6-8 years. These mediocore, lack of vision moves are not par for the course. I agree though, a top pick this year would have done wonders for our future and helped push us further. If the plan is Scottie, well, he needs another star-level talent to help. Ya that's it, you always need 2, and they have like a 50 50 shot this year if getting one, maybe even better odds than that, with a high chance of getting amazing ones. I just can't understand it. Their argument was what do you tell the championship level guys that you're now tanking. Hey guys, we're in 5th last so what you are doing isn't good enough. You're either traded or sitting. Thanks.
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Post by sandman on Jul 11, 2023 23:54:39 GMT -5
In a way, it's possible that the likes of FVV/Pascal/Nurse thought they were better than they were.
I don't think they want to give Kawhi's impact as much credit. He was just the perfect glue piece and allowed everyone else to shine. Without him, those guys don't have that opportunity.
Oh, and Kyle too.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 12, 2023 18:37:53 GMT -5
None of that matters really though, Nurse, Pascal and FVV can think all they want about how good they are, this FO is supposed to be one if the best in the league and this last while has been terrible.
Joe House made fun of Washington for of course finally rebuilding after such a good draft year because that's the joke the franchise is... Well we copied Washington. I know I'm beating a dead horse but this whole thing has really got me doubting the FO. No one will trade with them anymore because they seem to try to win every trade easily and others just aren't interested in it. It worked before but it's not working anymore. They said going into this off season not much will change for value of the players but that's also not true because Siakam and OG had that current year so 2 playoffs, plus it gives the team an out later if they need it. Now they can't trade them because they have too much power being expiring and just saying they won't resign there.
They seemed to ignore that trading people last year might not have been a huge haul but it also includes an improved pick on your end and that has a lot of value.
I'm not mad that FVV left for nothing, I'm mad that they could lose him for nothing and still didn't trade him when this pick was there.
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Post by haisan on Jul 12, 2023 22:12:35 GMT -5
In the 4 years since we won the title, the Raptors have had: • One really strong season (on track for 60 wins before Covid turned everything upside-down). • One terrible season (Scottie!) • One surprising good season • One surprisingly mediocre season (0.500).
The fact is, most of our players have been undervalued league-wide and wouldn't have gotten a great return (save for OG last year, it seems). These results are ... well, not terrible. One sub-0.500 season out of four. Two quite good ones. I see lots of reasons the FO could think they can still pull this out without a full tear-down. Of course, I also see plenty of warning signs. But I'm not quite willing to curse the gods. I think the season ahead is going to go a long way toward clarifying where we are. I could see a few directions things could go well. I could see quite a few ways things go ugly. But for me, I'm still in "wait and see".
(That said, our summer league squad didn't do anything to boost my confidence).
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Post by scully19 on Jul 17, 2023 7:45:35 GMT -5
Not sure anyone saw this yet: www.theringer.com/sports/2023/7/13/23793048/damian-lillard-nba-trade-rumors-toronto-raptorsBasically the trade being: Raptors get: Damian Lillard, Nassir Little Blazers get: Scottie Barnes, Gary Trent Jr., Chris Boucher, Thaddeus Young, Otto Porter Jr., Toronto’s unprotected first-round pick in 2028, and a pick swap in 2029 Leaves a lineup of Lillard, Dick, OG, Siakam, Poeltl with bench of Dennis Schroeder, Flynn/Little, McDaniels, Precious, Koloko. SG is rough, you're starting a rookie because that's the best option. Perhaps Schroeder but he's a bit redundant on offense that you would be better with a Sniper from 3 there...maybe OG at SG and Precious in the lineup...or McDaniels if he looks the part to be able to handle SG. Really all the options don't seem great to me. You might feel good here from a top 7 perspective, but behind that is a lot of question marks for depth. The writer likes the trade but i don't see the point. It's a win now trade that we likely can't win the title, so why? I'd rather go with Scottie and maybe sneak in on the Miami/Portland trade to take Tyler Herro who would fit this team very well.
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Post by freewheel on Jul 17, 2023 11:42:07 GMT -5
I'm interested but only for someone who acts like a pro, the way Leonard did. We knew he wasn't likely to stay but he put it on the floor. There was no whining and he earned a championship and made himself a bit of a legend. Lillard has already indicated that he will sulk.
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Post by zugzwang on Jul 17, 2023 16:18:34 GMT -5
How do we know Thrillard will sulk? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering what I missed?
Not that I'd love this trade anyway. I agree with Scully's characterization. It puts us 'all in' but not in enough to go the distance. It's a good move to fill seats and add some wins, but not if the goal is a title.
I very much doubt Masai is ready to give up on Scottie though.
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Post by freewheel on Jul 17, 2023 20:22:57 GMT -5
As Cronin explores the broader landscape, Lillard's agent, Aaron Goodwin, has been calling prospective trade partners and warning against trading for his client, team executives told ESPN. Goodwin is telling organizations outside of Miami that trading for Lillard is trading for an unhappy player. As interference goes, this is a time-honored agent maneuver to depress offers and clear a path to a predetermined destination.
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Post by zugzwang on Jul 17, 2023 21:00:30 GMT -5
Well I concede it certainly doesn't exemplify good behavior. But it doesn't mean if Thrillard doesn't get his wish he will necessarily go as far as to sulk. Like you say, Leonard didn't want to come to Toronto and he didn't sulk. Thrillard could also likewise get over it quickly and decide not to waste his remaining impact years.
Course it's a bit silly of me to split hairs over the tea leaves since it doesn't sound like any of us particularly want to deal for him. I think he's fantastic and I'd love to see him here, but I don't yet see how any deal involving him possibly works out for the Raptors long-term. Any deal I'd like would mean Portland would get a better offer elsewhere.
It might be time for me to give up on trades and pretend to get excited over which players have put on 15-pounds of summer muscle...
Maybe I can get invigorated over the new coaching philosophy. How do people feel about swagger?
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Post by haisan on Jul 17, 2023 22:11:20 GMT -5
As Cronin explores the broader landscape, Lillard's agent, Aaron Goodwin, has been calling prospective trade partners and warning against trading for his client, team executives told ESPN. Goodwin is telling organizations outside of Miami that trading for Lillard is trading for an unhappy player. As interference goes, this is a time-honored agent maneuver to depress offers and clear a path to a predetermined destination. I don't understand the obsession with the Heat across the NBA. Yeah, they had an unexpected run last year, and I'm sure they're a good organization ... But on a sheer talent basis, they aren't that good. I'm sorry, but Lillard, OG, and Pascal (and Poeltl) on one team is pretty damn promising. Don't know why that wouldn't be intriguing for someone looking to make a serious postseason push ... OTOH, NBA players routinely show themselves to be terrible judges of basketball talent.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 18, 2023 7:50:04 GMT -5
Seems like he's just trying to get everything he wants and part of it is the friendship with Bam while also getting a title contending team, and living in a great location.
Personally I'm hoping he doesn't get what he wants. He got his money and years, so he gave up his right to also have Portland get way less for him because they need to send him to one place. His loyalty bonus got him that extension for like 120 million for 2 years when he's likely too old to be worth it. Maybe if he gave a list of 5 teams so Portland can still maximize return, but to actively drive down your price to get what you want isn't showing that loyalty he claims he has. He's not going to have anything to complain about though, only a contender would trade for him at this point so he's likely to be going somewhere with a chance for the title which is what he wants anyways.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 22, 2023 15:29:38 GMT -5
Pretty much seemed guaranteed to happen with Dowtin going to everything Raptors in the off season and training with the coaches all summer. Good for him though.
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Post by scully19 on Jul 31, 2023 12:57:06 GMT -5
This latest episode of The Hoop Collective is BRUTAL against the Raptors. Starts at 44:40 open.spotify.com/episode/38vzddNYuidMfWLJdWZQIt?si=7727bf14b0ff432b- They kill the front office for being directionless and tentative to make any deal so doing nothing. They talk about how they've bled talent out the door (I actually find this overrated personally but everyone quotes this), purgatory team, team indecision.
- OG can be extended for 116million for 4 years, which no one expects him to take which now turns to him into another issue player to sign.
- Pascal is obviously not signing because of the potential supermax available. (I hope that in this case it is more because the offer for max extension hasn't been put in front of him yet because this is by far my favorite option)
- They have 9 guys ahead of them.
- Vegas has them as 36.5 wins which would not only bring the play-in but ALSO lose the pick they used.
They expect that means they end up sending a 9th or 10th pick to the Spurs for Yak.
This looks pretty ugly but still goes back to what I expect at this point considering the roster. I hope for them to extend whoever they can (I believe GTJ is already done for 3 for 60), then give Darko half a season to use these players and see where the team looks like they fit in the league. If it is low then it's selling time because they are about to lose Siakam/OG for nothing (unless they pay huge for OG to keep with Scottie), reboot and develop and hopefully keep your pick. Everyone but Scottie on the table to redesign around. Then Darko goes to full development mode. What a difference a year makes. This time last year we were eyeing them to be fighting to 4/5 spot and have none of these issues, now does anyone expect them to be capable at all? Crazy times.
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Post by haisan on Jul 31, 2023 20:46:15 GMT -5
I mean ... the Raptors have had ONE sub-0.500 year over the past decade. Hardly terrible. I think the bigger issue is that Ujiri hasn't given the media much to work with and they're bored. Bored media is angry media.
I want to see how this year unfolds before losing my shit.
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Post by freewheel on Aug 1, 2023 11:06:38 GMT -5
So apparently Garrett Temple has signed a 1 year contract with the Raptors. He can shoot a little bit and that about all I can say. Depth on the bench. I hope either he is in the rotation and plays well or never sees anything but garbage time. I don't want any more retreads taking minutes away from our young players and then disappears half way through the season never to be heard from again.
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Post by scully19 on Aug 1, 2023 12:44:28 GMT -5
I assumed based on the release that this will be his 14th year that they signed him solely for veteran presence. Probably something identified as needed for the development coaching. If he gets any real PT something went wrong.
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Post by zugzwang on Aug 1, 2023 15:48:54 GMT -5
From what I've read so far, Temple's most notable stat is that he was voted 2nd most likely to have a coaching career.
Definitely sounds like a locker room play. Could be helpful.
While I get why people aren't exactly getting excited at the how the last roster spot was used, for the the small amount of money involved I don't really get all the internet anger out there either.
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Post by scully19 on Aug 2, 2023 2:28:48 GMT -5
Form what I've read so far, Temple's most notable stat is that he was voted 2nd most likely to have a coaching career. Definitely sounds like a locker room play. Could be helpful. While I get why people aren't exactly getting excited at the how the last roster spot was used, for the the small amount of money involved I don't really get all the internet anger out there either. people were angry about roster spot 15?
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Post by zugzwang on Aug 2, 2023 6:40:06 GMT -5
Oh yes, not here, but I read many posts/tweets/X's with Masai rage. The sentiment was most often that if there can't be a gangbuster trade to fill their fantasies the last slot was to be used for a young player to develop with upside.
I can't say that's wrong. I'm certainly open to both favorable trades and scrap heap players who develop into superstars but I don't accept that every time that fails to happen it auto-implies that Masai and/or Bobby are clowns.
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Post by scully19 on Aug 2, 2023 9:19:30 GMT -5
Oh yes, not here, but I read many posts/tweets/X's with Masai rage. The sentiment was most often that if there can't be a gangbuster trade to fill their fantasies the last slot was to be used for a young player to develop with upside. I can't say that's wrong. I'm certainly open to both favorable trades and scrap heap players who develop into superstars but I don't accept that every time that fails to happen it auto-implies that Masai and/or Bobby are clowns. Crazy. Personally for the 15th roster spot I'm happy with someone who might help with the player development. It's not always someone we have gotten for that spot so it certainly appears as if Darko is having an affect on the team already and i like it.
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Post by haisan on Aug 15, 2023 21:41:13 GMT -5
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