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Post by scully19 on Jan 15, 2024 9:31:26 GMT -5
I think there is no doubt this team is improved, if only in entertainment value but i believe in skill too. In saying that, this is brutal timing for it and we have a tough schedule ahead of the trade deadline to determine the long term future of this team, mainly with Siakam.
Jan 15 BOS Jan 17 MIA Jan 18 CHI Jan 20 NYK Jan 22 MEM Jan 26 LAC Jan 28 ATL Jan 30 CHI Feb 2 HOU Feb 4 OKC Feb 5 NOP Feb 7 CHA
I think those bold options will need to be wins (maybe split vs CHI) and then the hope is you can steal one or two. Finishing .500 in this stretch would be decent and nothing to complain about. This would almost certainly move them ahead of Atlanta and the Nets into the play in in 10th, beating the Bulls twice could get them to 9th even. Think that is enough for the FO to extend Siakam and stick with this team?
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Post by sandman on Jan 15, 2024 19:33:06 GMT -5
I'm still very much on board of trading Pascal.
Accumulate assets. Play out the year. I would think 2 years down the road we'll be in a spot to trade for a player of Siakam's calibre or higher, and we hopefully have a better idea of what that guy looks like to fit our roster.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 15, 2024 20:34:16 GMT -5
Based on tonight Siakam isnt the way forward for this team. I just cant find any way to justify giving him 40 mill per season to continue being a mediocre team. Id rather be mediocre and let other younger players attempt to grow into a bigger role. A trade, a sign and trade in the summer would be best, but I'm almost ready to let him walk for nothing.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 15, 2024 21:31:50 GMT -5
To be fair, I'm not advocating the guy extend and retire a Raptor. I'm more thinking extending him should bring more assets in when they do trade him.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 15, 2024 21:38:27 GMT -5
I'm wondering if that is possible. It just seems unlikely to me that giving Siakam a big raise will actually make him more valuable in trade. I'm a little concerned that teams are starting to realize that as talented as Siakam is he isn't worth it. Id like him as my third best player and not on a max contract.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 15, 2024 22:16:14 GMT -5
Length is the key. 3 year max extension is a tradable deal, he'll be 33 at the end of it I believe she is still producing really well. A lot of teams are inquiring about him this year but worried about him bolting in the summer. Why wouldn't a bunch of teams be interested 1 year later if they have some security but not a poison contract. All those teams already know they'll need to pay him to keep him if they do make the trade so they just already be cool with it.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 15, 2024 22:20:46 GMT -5
I just hope the scouts that are watching him play are fooled. He isn't exactly putting his best on display this season.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 16, 2024 12:41:45 GMT -5
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Post by Pseudonym on Jan 16, 2024 14:14:03 GMT -5
Serious question: Post championship, what have been the FO's good moves? - Drafting Barnes
- OG trade
- Signing Johntay Porter (probably)
- Schroder signing
Am I missing anything? These are mostly recent, suggesting coming out of a funk or cold spell. And then missteps, as we all know ranging from a cut to massive: - FVV walking for nothing
- Generally, the brain drain both from the roster and staff itself
- Drafting Flynn & Dick (so far)
- Disintegration of relationship with NN
- Powell for GTJ trade (calculated risk that didn't pay off)
- Sending two FRPs to the Spurs for Yak and Thad Young, making tanking this year basically impossible and undesirable as the team sits in 12th place atm
- Not trading Siakam last year, leading to the above tweet by scully19
- Not tanking and sending away a pick when we had a worse record than the team who got the 2nd pick in a generational draft at the trade deadline while using an actual playoff rotation (Scoot has had a rough rookie year, but they didn't have to pick Scoot, in the same way they didn't have to pick Suggs)
So now we have Siakam, an elite player also on the precipice of leaving for nothing, tanking his trade value in saying he will not commit to any team he gets traded to. This all is still nothing new and unexpected - any moderate person at all following the team and not blindly stanning Masai can see this coming and turning out the way it has. It's a tough spot, deeply compounded by a weird cocktail of denial, arrogance and indecision. And Siakam is a great player. He been putting up good numbers, but the team is capped out and needs new contracts with raises. So he has to go, unfortunately. The prospect of signing him for 3 years and them trading him later does not really seem feasible to me, either - you have to imagine he and his camp see through the FO.
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Post by Pseudonym on Jan 16, 2024 14:25:03 GMT -5
Oh, also because Memphis is apparently cursed, we will be competing with them in order to keep the pick this year and stay at 6th. They are currently missing 4 starters for an extended period of time, some out for the whole season. Keeping the pick will be exceedingly difficult.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 16, 2024 14:37:16 GMT -5
The Lowry trade can be added to the above list on the negative, but i do give that a slight pass in that the FO basically let him pick where he wanted to go and made it work for him, and I can't disagree with the approach for Lowry.
Siakam for 3 years, he might insist on 4 maybe, but the truth is he is going to want his money by the sounds of it and if that's what you're going for then you can't fit on this team. Do as the rest of the league does and take your money and then work on a trade later trying to get to where you want to go. I get where these guys are coming from, try to maximize your money...but i mean come on, you want to play where you want to play then you can't make your contract unfeasible...i always think if I'm in these situations, give me 30 million instead of 45 so I'm trying to play for titles, and add a no trade clause so i control not going to play for some shit team. Honestly who needs that extra 15 million. It's obviously a lot of money but you are going to be fine making like 300 million in your career, do you really need to make 400?
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Post by haisan on Jan 16, 2024 17:01:02 GMT -5
Raptors are tied with Memphis for 6th-worst record in the NBA. Not far out of the play-in game, but pretty damn far from respectability. Barring a 2022 Celtics turnaround…
My big takeaway from this season is how important good drafting is to keep a team’s talent cupboard full. 7-10 years ago, we did very well. But since the championship, there’s been Scottie. That’s it. You don’t need to get an All-Star from deep in the draft, but you do need talent. Since drafting OG in 2017, nothing (….even Scottie… you expect a No. 4 pick to be decent, so no special points there).
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Post by sandman on Jan 16, 2024 18:30:14 GMT -5
I don't know if there's some bad blood between Pascal and the front office but it seems his lack of will to re-up a deal with his new team could be in part motivated to "sticking it to the FO."
There's been rumblings of a rift between him and FO.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 16, 2024 19:02:37 GMT -5
I don't see how they're couldn't be. They apparently didn't talk to him once in the off season, never showed interest in extending him, then showed up at training camp and essentially implied he was selfish last year. I doubt Pascal feels too great about it all.
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Post by haisan on Jan 16, 2024 19:09:54 GMT -5
I don't see how they're couldn't be. They apparently didn't talk to him once in the off season, never showed interest in extending him, then showed up at training camp and essentially implied he was selfish last year. I doubt Pascal feels too great about it all. Considering the Ujiri office doesn’t leak, I’m assuming most of what we’re hearing is coming from Pascal’s team. Was there really something odd about how the FO dealt with Pascal? Maybe. Or maybe they’re just trying to shape a narrative. Certainly there have been all sorts of whispers of discontentment coming from the locker room for the past couple of years. I wish we had some decent reporters in Toronto who could separate facts from spin and provide some clarity.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 16, 2024 20:10:31 GMT -5
Pascal's team or from the other FOs.
Side note though it is pretty amazing that the Raptors are the only ones who don't leak anything. At the Draft every team has their pick announced before actually picked on Twitter except Toronto. I love it.
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Post by haisan on Jan 16, 2024 20:42:29 GMT -5
More Pascal-Indiana rumors, via Shams. Picks!
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Post by scully19 on Jan 16, 2024 20:51:32 GMT -5
Oops. Forgot to check above before posting the exact same Twitter post.
Anyways, 3 first is something. I wonder what else to make the salaries work. I imagine Hield would be included for salary which is some good shooting. Still think one of Mathurin or Nembhard is possible?
Bruce Bowen is getting floated too, 22 million this year with 23 million option for next year and he hasn't exactly fit in. Would be smart salary filter if that's all it is.
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Post by sutureself on Jan 16, 2024 23:49:14 GMT -5
Bruce Bowen is getting floated too, 22 million this year with 23 million option for next year and he hasn't exactly fit in. Would be smart salary filter if that's all it is. I like Bruce, would love to acquire an agitator and defender like that with championship experience. But does he fits in with Raptors' timeline at 52? (I kid, I kid...haha sorry couldn't resist)
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Post by sutureself on Jan 17, 2024 0:03:56 GMT -5
Pacers have 2 late-ish firsts in this draft, their own pick and most like OKC's pick (whichever is worst between Houston, OKC, Utah and Clippers). If the rumour is true and they're offering 3 firsts, I wonder if they're offering up both picks in this draft (since it's rumoured to not be a great draft) plus a 2026, or if they're offering 2024, 2026, 2028. Sounds like it would be Bruce Brown for sure. I don't know if they want to include Hield too since that would hurt their SG/SF depth losing both Brown and Hield, and he could help out if they're trying to win now. Pacers are 8 mil under the cap so they don't need to match Siakam totally, something like Brown + "Ain't No Stoppin" Obi Toppin + picks might get it done, if we're just collecting former Knicks at this point.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 17, 2024 9:35:27 GMT -5
Boy would that be a disappointing return if I'm honest, the picks from Indy directly will be low first for years if they can resign Siakam. The players are nothing like the ideal return from Knicks where you get young under played talent that needs a new situation and has security with long contract or restricted FA. Bruce Bowen/Brown is basically an expiring player and Toppin i have very little faith in. I feel like we need Mathurin, Nembhard or Walker. Something to give some immediate plus long term viability.
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Post by haisan on Jan 17, 2024 12:23:56 GMT -5
OB Toppin isn’t a player I’ve thought much about, but I do find it’s amusing he’s No. 2 in the NBA for TS%. Poeltl is 7th and RJ Barrett (who usually is among the worst heavy usage players in the league for TS%) has been shooting 0.653 since coming to Toronto. That would be 13th. We could be the TS% All-Stars! Lol.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 17, 2024 14:37:35 GMT -5
I'm still not really thrilled about getting forwards, but Toppin can at least shoot a little bit from range. We have to assume that Otto Porter and Young likely wont be back for next season, so we may need some depth forwards and ones that can shoot are better than ones that cannot. Brown could be a stop gap to replace Trent should he go, but I don't see much value there. His best value would be to just stay healthy until his contract runs out.
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Post by sutureself on Jan 17, 2024 14:37:41 GMT -5
Woj Bomb. Done deal. Siakam to the Pacers for two 24 1sts (Pacers own pick and another late first from OKC or Clippers likely) and a 26 1st. We get Bruce Brown, plus expiring SF/PF tweener Jordan Nwora who has had some moments where he looks like a rotation guy but is mainly just an inconsistent shooter who jacks corner 3s. New Orleans sends expiring PG Kira Lewis to us, who kind of looked like a shooter last season but has been awful this year, and a 2nd to Pacers for facilitating salary dump. Woj reports Siakam is willing to negotiate extension with Pacers.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 17, 2024 14:46:22 GMT -5
Underwhelming but I will not complain. The last game that Siakam played was so underwhelming that the offers might have started getting worse or began disappearing completely. It will be interesting what happens at the open forward position. Who gets the start? Otto Porter, Boucher, McDaniels? Could move Barrett up and then start Trent or Brown. I prefer Barrett as a guard.
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Post by sutureself on Jan 17, 2024 14:47:11 GMT -5
So yeah, bittersweet deal obviously. It feels especially dumb that we went win now mode last year and traded away our pick in this draft to get Poeltl, and now suddenly we're giving up an All-Pro potential player just to replace that pick in this draft (plus other picks obviously). I know you have to look at each deal on its own merit but it feels to me like we gave up Siakam for two decent but limited role players with expensive contracts in Poeltl and Brown, plus a late 1st in an underwhelming draft, and likely another late 1st in 2026. But I guess you have to take each trade in isolation, and say yeah the Poeltl trade was a mistake now but you can't sit still and watch Siakam leave for nothing just because we screwed up the Poeltl trade. So it's better to get back something rather than just letting him walk, and getting three picks feels like more than what we could potentially get for him in a sign-and-trade this offseason.
Edit: the pick we gave away for Poeltl was only top-6 protected so going to be pretty annoying if the Raptors really start to struggle and give up the 7th or 8th pick for Poeltl and then slap a bandaid on it with two late 1sts. Unless this is a sign we're going to Capital-T Tank and try to keep our pick this year as a top-6. If the season ended today the pick would likely be 7th overall depending on the lottery.
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Post by Pseudonym on Jan 17, 2024 15:09:00 GMT -5
Gross trade, but at least a direction has been unambiguously picked and we can move forward. I would add it to the list of missteps, as this contradicts the rational for Yak trade even more, and they could've gotten much more last year.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 17, 2024 16:29:39 GMT -5
I know a lot of people think Ujiri is pretty cut throat because of the Derozan trade and maybe trying to change that perception is what lead to this downfall. He hung on way too long to a group consisting of Vanvleet, OG, and Siakam thinking it was a good enough core to go somewhere. I don't think it ever was good enough and a lot of fans thought the same. All three are probably good enough to be the third best player on a championship team, but as a "big three", they were only going to fail slowly. Which is what they did. Even bringing Poeltl back into the fold might have been a bit of nostalgia rather than a smart basketball decision. Had Ujiri not been so sentimental with the guys that he drafted he might have made deals sooner and come out smelling better. As it is the odour from the last three seasons is fairly unpleasant.
Of course this is only my own speculation and might be completely false. Perhaps Ujiri was just lucky with his previous build and is instead just a farce of a GM or maybe he's lost interest. I cant buy that. I'm satisfied to let Ujiri try again to build something from the ground up. I still think he's a quality manager.
Now Bobby Webster....
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Post by sutureself on Jan 17, 2024 16:55:16 GMT -5
I still feel like dealing Siakam this early rather than waiting until trade deadline is a reaction to the Poeltl trade, and an attempt to tank and retain our top-6 protected pick. But if that's true it's a slap in the face to a guy like Scottie in his 3rd year trying to take the next step, and also ruins the goodwill of guys like Barrett and Quickley who came here with a lot of energy and optimism. Just feels like this team can never decide whether to shit or get off the pot
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Post by scully19 on Jan 17, 2024 17:00:14 GMT -5
I'm underwhelmed. I would be much happier with a 3 or 4 year extension. Probably falling victim to the history and relationship but he gave everything to the Raptors and was a great teammate and player. Seems the ghost of FVV looms large.
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