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Post by scully19 on Sept 25, 2023 14:14:49 GMT -5
I just want to get in here to put myself on record and say I'm in favor of it. If it happens and doesn't work out, I can be lambasted. No, I don't think it likely results in a title run, and I'm not saying Thrillard is Leonard, but if Masai can actually get the 'disgruntled superstar at the deadline' discount here, I think you gotta do it. We'll enjoy some great basketball and you never know how it could position us in the future. I mean what if Scotty makes the jump before Lillard declines? What if being the number 2 option again liberates Siakam? All what ifs, I know. The fact that Thrillard's camp felt the need to put the word out that he won't play for Toronto specifically, makes me think Masai has been on the phone. Certainly that's not good to hear, but I think that's just a tactic by his agents to try to get him to his preferred destination. He's a professional. Unfortunately, the reality is that the east is a beast right now so the timing isn't necessarily great. I at least see the argument for hoarding draft capital instead. But if there's a cheap superstar? You can't sleep on that. had to reply just to the East is a beast so maybe not the best time... The East could be in for a big shake up. Look at all the top teams... Milwaukee has a Giannis problem and everyone around him is aging. 8 expect they'll be good this year but as soon as next year could have no one left. Boston just took the finals team and changed their while philosophy around an injury prone big. Philly is not winning the Harden situation. No trade can be done that will bring enough value back and he will definitely mope until gone. They are likely going to try to build in free agency around Embiid but failing would likely mean needing to trade Embiid and be garbage too. Heat are just aging out, they might be great in the playoffs but they BARELY made it let's not forget, and they lost important players. How much longer do they have at it? Who else is looking that threatening for the next 3 years (Dame's window). They might have trouble getting to the top this year but their strongest would actually be next year and the year after with more internal improvement and an off season to spend and build around the team... Provided they resign Pascal to the max, preferably extend now if they do the trade so you know they are going to be competitive for the next 3 years. I think they would quickly be the 2nd best team in the east and maybe better than Boston considering the changes they made might backfire. |
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Post by scully19 on Sept 25, 2023 14:56:08 GMT -5
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Post by freewheel on Sept 25, 2023 20:21:21 GMT -5
I was on board with everything until you got to the part about the Raps maybe being 2nd best in the conference. Unfortunately what I see is a stagnant team. No internal growth. I could see some teams falling below them and others rising above them while the Raps stay where they are.
The wild card is our new coach. He needs to bring some new ideas and excitement into the way the players play the game. I need to see that to regain some confidence in our roster.
I also don't want to wait another year to fix this horribly unbalanced roster.
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Post by scully19 on Sept 25, 2023 21:32:10 GMT -5
I was on board with everything until you got to the part about the Raps maybe being 2nd best in the conference. Unfortunately what I see is a stagnant team. No internal growth. I could see some teams falling below them and others rising above them while the Raps stay where they are. The wild card is our new coach. He needs to bring some new ideas and excitement into the way the players play the game. I need to see that to regain some confidence in our roster. I also don't want to wait another year to fix this horribly unbalanced roster. In case it wasn't clear I meant the team being 2nd best after trading for Lillard. Not as currently constructed. |
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Post by haisan on Sept 26, 2023 0:43:56 GMT -5
So I find it doubtful but it sounds like it might be true that the Raptors are actually interested in Lillard. I would assume the trade would involve OG, Gradey, filler and picks? They have apparently made it clear no Scottie is happening so I'm ignoring those options. I know his deal sucks, but a lineup of Lillard, Trent, Scottie, Pascal, Poeltl is honestly really nice for 2 to 3 years. From whoever isn't filter we would have Boucher, Precious, Schroeder, Koloko, McDaniels, Young and Flynn. That's honestly not bad. I would be pretty hyped for the next 3 years. I really agree with this sentiment. Imho, the Raptors actually have a fair amount of talent on their roster ... it's just really redundant and badly constructed. Getting rid of one of their 6'9" guys for a top-tier guard has the potential to vault the Raptors to the top of the East. Especially since most of their roster is so good on defense, they can afford one defensive liability in exchange for being so transformative on offense. Plus, Pascal going back to a No. 2 option would be great for him. Poeltl should love it, too, having such a difference-maker on the perimeter. As always, the big question is, will Scottie step up and become the player he has the potential to be? Assuming no one gets hurt and Scottie gets better, I could easily see this being a 55+ win team in the East. Definitely in the mix for a deep run in the playoffs. |
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Post by haisan on Sept 26, 2023 1:22:39 GMT -5
I should add that personally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of Scottie and keeping OG ... OG's 3point shooting is really important in today's game and he's just an incredible defender. Plus, I heard that Dame really wanted to play with him. However, each summer, we hear those noises about OG wanting a bigger role on offense and to have the ball in his hands more, and I think, "No, OG... just no." Watching OG try to go one-on-one from the perimeter makes me sad.
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Post by Pseudonym on Sept 26, 2023 22:03:20 GMT -5
So I find it doubtful but it sounds like it might be true that the Raptors are actually interested in Lillard. I would assume the trade would involve OG, Gradey, filler and picks? They have apparently made it clear no Scottie is happening so I'm ignoring those options. I know his deal sucks, but a lineup of Lillard, Trent, Scottie, Pascal, Poeltl is honestly really nice for 2 to 3 years. From whoever isn't filter we would have Boucher, Precious, Schroeder, Koloko, McDaniels, Young and Flynn. That's honestly not bad. I would be pretty hyped for the next 3 years. I really agree with this sentiment. Imho, the Raptors actually have a fair amount of talent on their roster ... it's just really redundant and badly constructed. Getting rid of one of their 6'9" guys for a top-tier guard has the potential to vault the Raptors to the top of the East. Especially since most of their roster is so good on defense, they can afford one defensive liability in exchange for being so transformative on offense. Plus, Pascal going back to a No. 2 option would be great for him. Poeltl should love it, too, having such a difference-maker on the perimeter. As always, the big question is, will Scottie step up and become the player he has the potential to be? Assuming no one gets hurt and Scottie gets better, I could easily see this being a 55+ win team in the East. Definitely in the mix for a deep run in the playoffs. Yeah tbh, roster balance has been such a massive problem that we begin underrating our own talent. The trade, depending on what it is, would fill a big need. But....if you're Portland, how tf do you not get two of OG, Siakam or Barnes for him? And then there are the salary concerns, both to just match the trade, and as time passes with his supermax.
Even with context, when the team traded for Kawhi, they were at a plateau and had rebuilding in the cards. But they were like a 55+ win team that swapped its foundational piece, DeRozan, for one of the best playoff performers ever. Dame.... not so much
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Post by haisan on Sept 27, 2023 4:10:38 GMT -5
Yeah tbh, roster balance has been such a massive problem that we begin underrating our own talent. The trade, depending on what it is, would fill a big need. But....if you're Portland, how tf do you not get two of OG, Siakam or Barnes for him? And then there are the salary concerns, both to just match the trade, and as time passes with his supermax. Even with context, when the team traded for Kawhi, they were at a plateau and had rebuilding in the cards. But they were like a 55+ win team that swapped its foundational piece, DeRozan, for one of the best playoff performers ever. Dame.... not so much
Kawhi was also in his 20s, not 33. I don't think Portland is getting any amazing offers. Siakam is too old (and not highly valued, I think). So you get OG or Scottie ... plus maybe Dick and a pick or two. At the very least, Dame will give us a couple of years or exciting ball, with the potential for something more. ... Or he'll strain an abdominal muscle in the first week and be out for the season. ... Or Miami will cave and offer Portland what Portland really wants. |
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Post by zugzwang on Sept 27, 2023 5:37:11 GMT -5
Yes, there are certainly serious risks with age and injuries and the Raps would have to take that on. Also risks surrounding his attitude. The idea though, as it's being sold to me anyways, is that all of this is being accounted for in the price--and then some.
I too worry Portland is just using the Raps to get Miami to move. I am just hoping it's true that Miami has nothing to move with. Their draft asset cupboard is supposedly pretty bare.
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Post by scully19 on Sept 27, 2023 13:51:24 GMT -5
Yes, there are certainly serious risks with age and injuries and the Raps would have to take that on. Also risks surrounding his attitude. The idea though, as it's being sold to me anyways, is that all of this is being accounted for in the price--and then some. I too worry Portland is just using the Raps to get Miami to move. I am just hoping it's true that Miami has nothing to move with. Their draft asset cupboard is supposedly pretty bare. I'm totally on board with being a leverage play when the trade in the table for you is still a good deal, either you can get a good player and improve your team significantly or you force a difference rival to hurt their long term future when you hope to be challenging. |
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Post by scully19 on Sept 27, 2023 14:11:33 GMT -5
2 dreams die at once:
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Post by zugzwang on Sept 27, 2023 15:38:34 GMT -5
Nevermind.
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Post by haisan on Sept 27, 2023 15:56:25 GMT -5
Lol
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Post by sandman on Sept 27, 2023 18:29:12 GMT -5
I don't know how the Bucks pulled that one off...
That's a steal for them.
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Post by freewheel on Sept 27, 2023 18:40:15 GMT -5
I'm not upset or surprised. Portland still wants OG and they have to deal Holiday. At some point the Raps have to get involved and deal a forward. If they dont then they aren't serious about this season.
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Post by scully19 on Sept 27, 2023 20:32:54 GMT -5
I'm not upset or surprised. Portland still wants OG and they have to deal Holiday. At some point the Raps have to get involved and deal a forward. If they dont then they aren't serious about this season. I was thinking about this too. Portland definitely wants off Jrue, unfortunately half the league wants him if not for his contract being so short he would go for more than Lillard I would think just because of the competition for him. Jrue, GTJ, Scottie, Pascal, Poeltl. I believe at least Jrue you can sign for an extension and would be open to it so you have that security too (although you couldn't sign him to one until March or something so not perfect). |
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Post by sandman on Sept 27, 2023 21:00:59 GMT -5
I don't see Jrue moving the needle much for us. Not if it costs OG + something for him. I just don't see us ending up that much better, he's not exactly a shooter.
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Post by fenris77 on Sept 27, 2023 22:21:27 GMT -5
I don't see Jrue moving the needle much for us. Not if it costs OG + something for him. I just don't see us ending up that much better, he's not exactly a shooter. For OG? Nah, I'm out too. But for lesser pieces? Then I might be way more interested, shooting be damned. |
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Post by freewheel on Sept 28, 2023 14:43:42 GMT -5
OG, Siakam, Barnes? Somebody's gotta go. They aren't guards no matter what some fans want to believe. Off the bench we have Achiuwa, Boucher, Young, Porter, and now Dick. Not to mention they still have Harper Jr as a hopeful. None of these guys are guards and Achiuwa plays centre but isn't one. Just get some of them out of here. We're degrading our own bargaining power by overdrafting one position.
Edit: We have so many I plain forgot we just added forward Jalen McDaniels. Stop the madness!!
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Post by sandman on Sept 28, 2023 17:33:54 GMT -5
OG, Siakam, Barnes? Somebody's gotta go. They aren't guards no matter what some fans want to believe. Off the bench we have Achiuwa, Boucher, Young, Porter, and now Dick. Not to mention they still have Harper Jr as a hopeful. None of these guys are guards and Achiuwa plays centre but isn't one. Just get some of them out of here. We're degrading our own bargaining power by overdrafting one position.
Edit: We have so many I plain forgot we just added forward Jalen McDaniels. Stop the madness!!
Out of all those 3, I sooner move Siakam than the other two. OG's D is just too good and Barnes is the young gun. I also think OG and Barnes mesh better as a combo than Siakam + one of those two. Not sure you really get an upgrade or how you'd dangle the carrot to get an upgrade though. |
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Post by scully19 on Sept 28, 2023 20:17:38 GMT -5
So sounds like OG wasn't ever offered for Lillard, apparently they only want to do it if it didn't touch their core so that they could win now. GTJ and Dick and all the picks were the offer.
So take that over, GTJ, filler and a pick or 2. Jrue seems like a great PG to put next to this forwards who control the ball team.
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Post by haisan on Sept 28, 2023 23:40:25 GMT -5
Me: Oh no, not Jrue Holiday. He can’t shoot!
[Checks Holiday’s 3-pt and TS% numbers. Compares to FVV and Toronto’s other starters]
Me: Bring on Jrue Holiday!
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Post by zugzwang on Sept 29, 2023 5:32:27 GMT -5
So sounds like OG wasn't ever offered for Lillard, apparently they only want to do it if it didn't touch their core so that they could win now. GTJ and Dick and all the picks were the offer. So take that over, GTJ, filler and a pick or 2. Jrue seems like a great PG to put next to this forwards who control the ball team. If that's true, even I, a staunch Masai defender, have to wonder. That's a lost opportunity. As far as I can tell from googling though, the source for this is Michael Grange, who's contacts are not terribly strong. Another possibility is that post-trade a front office often deals in damage control. They often deny making players available to protect the player's sensitivities or assurances that were previously made. The other internet explanation is Dame just showed too little interest to justify any major investment. But man, even if he had none, you'd still think they'd make a play for him. OG is on his last year. |
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Post by scully19 on Sept 29, 2023 8:10:23 GMT -5
Definitely a lost opportunity because it also sounds like if they did include OG then the deal is done, would have been done a week ago.
Not saying they should have necessarily but that's the word.
I love OG but I think the money that he's about to command is going to put him in a position of not being worth his contract anymore and being a negative production value. I just don't think his offense game can keep up with what he thinks it is.
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Post by sutureself on Sept 29, 2023 15:06:50 GMT -5
Me: Oh no, not Jrue Holiday. He can’t shoot! [Checks Holiday’s 3-pt and TS% numbers. Compares to FVV and Toronto’s other starters] Me: Bring on Jrue Holiday! Jrue's regular season stats are excellent. I think the criticism of his game is that when defenses tightened up in the playoffs, his percentages went way down, to around 40% FG/30% 3FG in each of the past three playoffs.
Jrue is making almost 36.8 million so it gets a little tricky to match salary if Raptors wanted to make a play. You can match that with a 4 for 1 like GTJ (18.5), Dick (4.5), Thad Young (8), and Porter Jr. (6.5). I guess Young and Porter are probably not guaranteed rotation guys for us anyway. But it still starts to leave the team pretty thin if anyone gets hurt. Jrue is also 33 and have to wonder if adding him is going to move the needle enough to make us a contender before he hits the cliff. I like his game a lot though and he does have championship experience.
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Post by freewheel on Sept 29, 2023 15:11:06 GMT -5
If we can deal 4 forwards for 2 guards, sign me up. I'd rather keep Trent.
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Post by zugzwang on Sept 29, 2023 17:28:07 GMT -5
Definitely a lost opportunity because it also sounds like if they did include OG then the deal is done, would have been done a week ago. Not saying they should have necessarily but that's the word. I love OG but I think the money that he's about to command is going to put him in a position of not being worth his contract anymore and being a negative production value. I just don't think his offense game can keep up with what he thinks it is. I'll say it then. They should have. Necessarily. I'm a huge OG fan, he's one of my top fave Raptors. He spent much of last season as the league's steal leader and was totally fun to watch. And I'll never forget this unreal playoff shot with 0.5 seconds left: But for that deal? I would have helped him pack. It's even possible OG might have enjoyed playing for Portland with that expanded role he's been after for so long. I'm afraid if Thrillard turns out to be healthy he's going to tear it up for the Bucks, freed up by a strong teammate . And then a LOT of people are going to regret not getting him too. But as a Masai apologist, I'm not yet convinced the Raps didn't try for that deal. I just find it hard to believe you pass on that. |
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Post by Pseudonym on Sept 29, 2023 20:50:13 GMT -5
It's wild to me that OG on an expiring contract wasn't offered for Damian friggin Lillard - you are notgetting a better player than him in a trade, period. If it's true, then you have to wonder if the FO is washed.
A Giannis-Lillard pairing basically an ideal pairing offensively. Like 64PPG on stoopid efficiency with Middleton as a distant 3rd option and solid defenders....yikes.
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Post by sandman on Sept 30, 2023 8:58:12 GMT -5
It does seem like the FO has had a lot of misses and strikes the last 2 seasons. Seems directionless, far away from what the years leading up to our championship were.
Is it the other execs being afraid of dealing with Masai? Is Masai and Webster's ego inflated and asking way too much for our guys?
Either way, we need to start looking at "prove me" seasons and tighten up that leash. No more, "trust the process" and rather let's see this plan actually coming to fruition.
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Post by scully19 on Sept 30, 2023 18:38:46 GMT -5
Classic fall in love with your own players you drafted. They could manage to trade DeRozan and Lowry (twice) but can't trade OG, Siakam, FVV or Scottie (probably shouldn't trade him yet to be fair).
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