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Post by Pseudonym on Dec 18, 2022 10:54:16 GMT -5
So let's see...
Abysmal shooting, no 2-way player at the 5 (with Precious out), OG out, FVV bricking, GTR's inconsistency, Scottie's sophomore slump, no bench (or willingness to play them), giving up an abundance of corner threes, the worst half court offense, the worst pick and roll defense...
It's actually a miracle the team's record is what it is. But Nurse is in a double bind. They need to win the possession game, but to stop hemorraging such valuable stuff on the defensive end would require less defensive aggression and scrambling; the team's been scouted and have grown a tad complacent fr last year's success.
This however can get ugly very quickly. Their next 10 games or so are tough.
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Post by Money_Ball on Dec 19, 2022 11:36:35 GMT -5
So let's see... Abysmal shooting, no 2-way player at the 5 (with Precious out), OG out, FVV bricking, GTR's inconsistency, Scottie's sophomore slump, no bench (or willingness to play them), giving up an abundance of corner threes, the worst half court offense, the worst pick and roll defense... It's actually a miracle the team's record is what it is. But Nurse is in a double bind. They need to win the possession game, but to stop hemorraging such valuable stuff on the defensive end would require less defensive aggression and scrambling; the team's been scouted and have grown a tad complacent fr last year's success. This however can get ugly very quickly. Their next 10 games or so are tough. I think they overachieved last year to be honest. Add the fact that competition has gotten a lot stronger and injuries piling up and you've got a recipe for a poor season. The hardest part to watch in all this imo is seeing the bad body language from our guys. They look mentally defeated. Last year they really bought into what they were doing, but these last few weeks they just look completely discouraged. I'm really hoping this isn't a case them of tuning out Nurse.
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Post by haisan on Dec 19, 2022 21:26:42 GMT -5
I find myself increasingly reminded of the Rick Pitino run on the Celtics. That was his vision, a team of all 6’8” guys, playing a trapping defense the whole game like his college teams. But it turns out that pro players don’t want to play that kind of non-stop grinding defense all the time, and they weren’t great shooters, and the team revolted.
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Post by freewheel on Dec 19, 2022 21:53:11 GMT -5
I find myself increasingly reminded of the Rick Pitino run on the Celtics. That was his vision, a team of all 6’8” guys, playing a trapping defense the whole game like his college teams. But it turns out that pro players don’t want to play that kind of non-stop grinding defense all the time, and they weren’t great shooters, and the team revolted. I had forgotten about that. It was a different NBA then with a lot bigger guys and mostly halfcourt play so players didn't want to change from what they were used too. However I do agree the same issues apply today. There are too many games and too much physical play to expend the amount of energy the Raptors are being asked of. This team is gonna be a shell by the end of the season if they cant find some ways to slow it down and score easier.
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Post by Money_Ball on Dec 20, 2022 20:49:13 GMT -5
I find myself increasingly reminded of the Rick Pitino run on the Celtics. That was his vision, a team of all 6’8” guys, playing a trapping defense the whole game like his college teams. But it turns out that pro players don’t want to play that kind of non-stop grinding defense all the time, and they weren’t great shooters, and the team revolted. I think it's more doable when you've got a strong bench with a lot of depth to help out, something this roster currently doesn't have. I would imagine the piss poor offense doesn't help either... you bust your tail over and over again just to labour offensively for a low percentage shot. Not very rewarding if you ask me.
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Post by haisan on Jan 5, 2023 10:35:07 GMT -5
If this does turn into a tank season, it's going to be a really weird one. The Raptors are currently 16th for ORat and 14th for DRat, so far from terrible. Suggests that the team should be 16th overall and 19-19. But instead we're 16-22 and 6th-worst. Imho, that implies some bad luck and some bad coaching.
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Post by coach on Jan 6, 2023 10:12:20 GMT -5
If they make more shots this turns around. As a player I would have to look in the mirror. Shot selection is an issue.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 6, 2023 12:15:22 GMT -5
If they make more shots this turns around. As a player I would have to look in the mirror. Shot selection is an issue.
I agree, though shot creating is an issue as well. When Vanvleet's shot went into the dumpster he became a poor shot distributor and so it was decided to run the offense through Siakam instead. Siakam isn't nearly a good enough passer or offense generator to be the primary guy to run the offense through. Sure he's a fine scorer but i think he's much more suited to an off the ball scorer/2nd option. I'd rather someone else was trying to get him shots than him trying to get others shots. Barnes may one day be that guy but I'm still not certain and its too soon to hand him the keys (unless they blow it up and then you give Barnes the keys).
I'd like to see the Raptors acquire a guard who can make plays. Just look at a couple teams that have made strides in recent seasons. The Suns got Paul and made a huge jump is their quality of play after being miserable for years. This year the decade long terrible Knicks finally found a PG in Brunson and now they are decent (imagine that). I could probably find a few more teams but I'm lazy. A reversal would be to look at the teams at the bottom of the eastern conference and all the PG troubles they have had this season.
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Post by coach on Jan 9, 2023 23:21:02 GMT -5
Well there is no question FVV is not an elite PG. He's really a 2 doing the job of a 1. The Raptors have 5 really good players that would make a difference on any team. MU has a problem because he has some players that are going to want to be paid and I don't think he can pay them and improve the team at the same time.
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Post by haisan on Jan 10, 2023 1:25:29 GMT -5
I think FVV is a very good player, but he's being asked to do too much. 25-30 minutes per game, as 1-2 combo guard, he can be excellent (especially on those nights when his shooting is on). But over 30 minutes/game, he just starts to break down and becomes a major liability.
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Post by blueyoda on Jan 10, 2023 10:05:43 GMT -5
There is no doubt FVV is a very good player, probably still the second or third-best player on this Raptors team. However, the lack of an effective centre as well as the constant switching-based defensive scheme puts him in a difficult situation. Either we move to a more conventional team and approach or bring the right personnel for this point-forward switch-heavy scheme.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 10, 2023 10:19:41 GMT -5
Seems like a lot of difficulties lately come back to minutes played. Our bench/development players have not lived up to previous expectations these past few years as the people we think will end up developing into roles and solidifying the backend of the roster are continually failing. This comes from lack of trust and continually playing the starters these massive minutes. Guys like Delano/Flynn should be given steady consistent minutes and they just can't seem to get it. Yuta is now a sniper (admittedly getting much better looks than he would on the Raptors), Oshae has been solid. Maybe i should rephrase that to the development is there, but the exposure of skill isn't. Lower the minutes played by the starters and you get better play from them and better development from the bench. You just can't cut them off so quick, if they aren't winning you games in the first 5 games of the season the point is they will win you games later in the year by their play being better and the starters not being burnt out. From the year after the Championship Nurse changed and went for every win to show they were still competitive and switched entirely to that model. The Raptors are defined by their ability to develop guys with Siakam and FVV being the stars and leaders of the team and yet they have cut this ability off now in order to try and fail to get a couple extra pointless wins.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 10, 2023 15:14:29 GMT -5
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Post by haisan on Jan 10, 2023 19:43:17 GMT -5
Time for an Otto Porter appreciation thread?
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Post by Springer on Jan 10, 2023 23:02:37 GMT -5
Time for an Otto Porter appreciation thread? Injuries has plagued his career, poor guy. And a dislocated big toe is no joke!
Silver Lining: We can get cap relief for applying for long term disability (or something like that), but we don't get another roster spot. Bring in Boogie??
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Post by haisan on Jan 11, 2023 4:50:07 GMT -5
So, there's been some talk about the Raptors having a really easy schedule ahead of them. However, on behalf of the tank, I would like to point out something else — the Raptors have one of the worst road records in the NBA (5-13), and they still have a buttload of road games left to play (23). After the Hornets and Hawks, the Raptors will be playing 10 of the next 12 on the road, most of which are against above-0.500 teams (a stretch that ironically comes to an end right at the trade deadline). So, unless something changes, there's a good chance that come the trade deadline, our guys could be looking like roadkill.
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Post by sandman on Jan 11, 2023 7:44:53 GMT -5
Seems like a lot of difficulties lately come back to minutes played. Our bench/development players have not lived up to previous expectations these past few years as the people we think will end up developing into roles and solidifying the backend of the roster are continually failing. This comes from lack of trust and continually playing the starters these massive minutes. Guys like Delano/Flynn should be given steady consistent minutes and they just can't seem to get it. Yuta is now a sniper (admittedly getting much better looks than he would on the Raptors), Oshae has been solid. Maybe i should rephrase that to the development is there, but the exposure of skill isn't. Lower the minutes played by the starters and you get better play from them and better development from the bench. You just can't cut them off so quick, if they aren't winning you games in the first 5 games of the season the point is they will win you games later in the year by their play being better and the starters not being burnt out. From the year after the Championship Nurse changed and went for every win to show they were still competitive and switched entirely to that model. The Raptors are defined by their ability to develop guys with Siakam and FVV being the stars and leaders of the team and yet they have cut this ability off now in order to try and fail to get a couple extra pointless wins. I agree fully. I think this is NN's biggest downfall. He doesn't seem to want to give them a shot or doesn't trust them. Perhaps he's right and they're not that good but we need to develop and seeing guys playing in decent roles elsewhere makes me think otherwise.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 11, 2023 9:04:18 GMT -5
So, there's been some talk about the Raptors having a really easy schedule ahead of them. However, on behalf of the tank, I would like to point out something else — the Raptors have one of the worst road records in the NBA (5-13), and they still have a buttload of road games left to play (23). After the Hornets and Hawks, the Raptors will be playing 10 of the next 12 on the road, most of which are against above-0.500 teams (a stretch that ironically comes to an end right at the trade deadline). So, unless something changes, there's a good chance that come the trade deadline, our guys could be looking like roadkill. Ya after i posted the above about 10 of the next 16 being below 500 teams i went and counted and it isn't actually that way, a few teams were at 500 or just above so that changed the numbers. Also there is a 7 game west coach trip that ends right before the trade deadline. For those hoping for continued tank, it's not over yet.
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Post by haisan on Jan 11, 2023 20:00:10 GMT -5
It looks like Gary Trent is first up in the trade-o-rama sweepstakes. Lots of teams mentioned, including NY and Phoenix. Fans on other boards speculating that Ujiri is after Deandre Ayton, but I'm just scanning their roster to see who's 6'8".
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Post by zugzwang on Jan 11, 2023 22:06:33 GMT -5
I get the reasons to go for the tank. But it still makes my brain hurt to cheer against the Raps.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 12, 2023 8:32:23 GMT -5
I get the reasons to go for the tank. But it still makes my brain hurt to cheer against the Raps. I'm deep into tank mode at this point in my brain, and it only works by not watching for that same reason, it's hard to cheer against them.
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Post by zugzwang on Jan 12, 2023 23:17:32 GMT -5
Respect for your logic and delayed gratification. I'm just not built that way.
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Post by haisan on Jan 13, 2023 0:51:51 GMT -5
I just like good basketball. When we're playing terribly, I find it easier to support the tank. Not necessarily about winning ... For most of the Raptors' first 20 years, they weren't a winning team, but there were moments of hope, when they were fun to watch.
But now they've won 3 in a row. If they're turned things around and start playing well again, I won't be sad.
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Post by zugzwang on Jan 13, 2023 7:15:50 GMT -5
I'm also a bit fearful of multi-year tanks. No idea if it's true or not but when you are set to lose for multiple-years they say the culture and mindset changes for the worse. I suspect it's hard to turn an organization around to a winning culture on a dime (i.e. the Sixers found that and their process took longer than I suspect it was intended, though that's a pretty extreme example.) That one-year dip in bubble didn't seem harmful though.
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Post by haisan on Jan 14, 2023 4:15:43 GMT -5
As much as I’m happy to see the Raptors on a 3-game winning streak and playing better … could the Toronto media please hold back on talk of “streaks” and “resurgence” until we do more than beat the third-worst team in the NBA twice at home? Especially for Scottie’s play. Let’s be a little less “Squirrel!” and a little more thoughtful.
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Post by haisan on Jan 16, 2023 8:21:15 GMT -5
It does amaze me that, despite playing all sorts of "meh" basketball, the Raptors are still 14th for ORat and 16th for DRat ... which implies the team should have three more wins and be 22-21 (over 0.500!). But somehow we're the 7th-worse team in the NBA at the moment.
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Post by haisan on Jan 29, 2023 21:27:51 GMT -5
Now the 6th-worst team in the NBA, but 14th overall by point differential. Now four wins behind where they "should" be. I still have no idea if that's a sign of how off the team is or how they should revert to the mean soon and bounce back.
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Post by scully19 on Jan 30, 2023 8:59:57 GMT -5
Now the 6th-worst team in the NBA, but 14th overall by point differential. Now four wins behind where they "should" be. I still have no idea if that's a sign of how off the team is or how they should revert to the mean soon and bounce back. It means we need to start the tank soon before it's too late. Really i take that record thing of an over reliance on the starters playing too many minutes and being burnt by the end of the game that they come up short.
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Post by freewheel on Jan 30, 2023 9:37:52 GMT -5
Now the 6th-worst team in the NBA, but 14th overall by point differential. Now four wins behind where they "should" be. I still have no idea if that's a sign of how off the team is or how they should revert to the mean soon and bounce back. It means we need to start the tank soon before it's too late. Really i take that record thing of an over reliance on the starters playing too many minutes and being burnt by the end of the game that they come up short. I agree. Also nagging injuries making guys constantly in and out of the lineup.
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Post by Pseudonym on Jan 30, 2023 13:31:14 GMT -5
Now the 6th-worst team in the NBA, but 14th overall by point differential. Now four wins behind where they "should" be. I still have no idea if that's a sign of how off the team is or how they should revert to the mean soon and bounce back. It means we need to start the tank soon before it's too late. Really i take that record thing of an over reliance on the starters playing too many minutes and being burnt by the end of the game that they come up short. Yup. No bench, so the point differential is inflated, so to speak. This makes me paranoid about a Rudy Gay effect in a trade. Speaking of which, I came to share this: https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/10p2qcf/og_anunoby_is_bottom_5_leaguewide_in_points_per/ I'm basically a Precious truther. I think he can become as good on OG defensively while being much, much better in ball handling adventures... I mean he is already. And there have been blips of him shooting well behind the arc already. With him out and Precious starting, I expect the offense to continue looking better, even factoring in FVV coming into form, which is almost balancing by Siakam looking gasses. OG is probably the best 3&D guy in the league but he wants to be more than that and he just ain't it. The Pelicans have been reeling. Could they get desperate enough to give us the Lakers' pick for OG? But if we move OG for real long term bench depth, that'll kill the tank and put the team at a 50ish win pace again. Probably too late to get the 6th seed though. Precious' chaos also flows better in the context of the team. Dude barely passes but he doesn't put things to a halt like OG does. I feel gross writing all of this.
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