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Post by sutureself on Apr 13, 2020 15:58:10 GMT -5
Anyone else excited for the ESPN doc series The Last Dance about the Bulls 97-98 season? Apparently first two episodes will be on Canadian Netflix April 20th with new episodes released weekly after that.
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Post by Pseudonym on Apr 13, 2020 16:27:18 GMT -5
It's good timing, now with there being nothing else to watch, as far as basketball goes.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 13, 2020 16:45:28 GMT -5
It's good timing, now with there being nothing else to watch, as far as basketball goes. Yeah it was originally supposed to come out in June around the playoffs and ESPN bumped it up specifically because there's a huge programming gap right now, probably trying to give people in the States an incentive to not cancel their ESPN channel subscription since it isn't coming out on Netflix in the States right away. Although obviously anyone who actually cares enough to get it will just VPN Netflix in another country or pirate it. I wonder if that was a big panic for any of the video and audio post people who thought they had a couple more months to finish off the project and then suddenly are crunching to finish while also following new social distancing protocols.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 20, 2020 17:50:06 GMT -5
Really enjoyed the first two episodes. It's interesting looking back at the 80s and how obsessed teams were with size. I guess that continued all through the 90s and 00s and it's only recently that teams are starting to favour smaller, more skilled players over bigger traditional Cs in the draft. I'm so used to making fun of the Blazers for passing on Michael Jordan to select Sam Bowie, that I didn't realize back then, people in the media questioned why the Bulls would spend the third overall pick on Michael Jordan rather than grabbing a centre. Lots of clips of pundits and other players saying you can't build a team around a guard as your best player. Even just the fact a front office guy had to defensively say during a preseason press conference "I wish Michael Jordan was 7'1" but he's not and he's still a great player." Really bizarre stuff.
Jerry Krause was painted as a slimy guy, but as a GM he definitely seemed to understand the need to grab versatile 6'6-6'8" type guys rather than always going for the biggest player, like convincing the Sonics to trade down and give away Scottie Pippen for another serviceable 7 footer in Olden Polynice. I found it interesting too looking back at how many of the Bulls' bland, interchangeable centres were very high draft picks for other teams, who the Bulls got for cheap later in their careers. Like Bill Cartwright was a 3rd overall pick, Luc Longley was a 7th overall pick. Even Bill Wennington was a late lottery pick. Bulls also drafted Will Perdue 11th overall. Just reminded me that back then if you were a 7 footer you were going in the 1st round no questions asked.
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Post by freewheel on Apr 21, 2020 13:22:22 GMT -5
Cartwright was an important contributor to getting the Bulls over the hump for their first championship. It cost the Bulls a young Charles Oakley to get him. Jordan hated the trade but it was a good short term trade. Cartwright wasn't intimidated by the other bigs in the NBA. He was a tough S.O.B. and they don't win that first title without him.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 21, 2020 16:14:23 GMT -5
Yeah for sure I wasn't specifically criticizing Cartwright, he's barely mentioned in the doc if at all. More just commenting on how teams were so obsessed with getting a C while guards and SG/SF types were viewed as less necessary, to the point where if you drafted an incredible rookie like Michael Jordan you'd still face some criticism like 'sure it's a nice luxury to have a talented SG but why didn't you try to get a dominant C.' And I'm sure the doc is cherry picking examples but there appeared to be more criticism of the pick at the time than I expected, just purely because Jordan wasn't a C.
Reminds me of the current attitude in NFL where everyone reaches for QBs, and it almost insulates you from criticism to draft a QB high even if he turns out to be a bust, because, well, at least you tried to get a QB. But you face immediate scrutiny if you draft an RB high, even if he ends up being a star, because it's viewed more as a luxury than a necessity.
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Post by sandman on Apr 21, 2020 22:40:49 GMT -5
There is no way MJ didn't do any coke.
And so far, he's being made out to be a lot nicer than he truly was.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 21, 2020 22:53:14 GMT -5
I agree (about MJ being meaner and more petty than the doc shows so far). It's kind of making me rethink my dislike for LeBron. I started getting annoyed with LeBron because it always seemed like he was trying to make himself look like the hero, the martyr, downplay his teammates and take all the credit. You can always see him scheming to try to control the media spin. But it makes me realize there's very little difference between Jordan and guys like LeBron, it's just before the age of social media Jordan was actually able to control media access, so we didn't get to see all the ways that he was just as petty and narcissistic. If MJ was coming up today I'd probably view him the same way I view LeBron now, and watch him turn from a fun success story to a guy I actively want to root against. Still the GOAT though.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 27, 2020 3:16:17 GMT -5
Jordan's a jerk but I love how indignant he gets in some of these interviews. In the late 80s, assistant coach Tex Winter (architect of the triangle offense), would tell Jordan he should pass more. Jordan complains why should Bill Cartwright take the last shot of the game instead of him. According to Jordan:
Tex Winter: Move the ball! There's no I in team. Jordan: Yeah, but there's an I in win.
I'm sure it didn't actually happen like that, but that's a hell of a zinger.
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Post by sandman on Apr 28, 2020 20:44:36 GMT -5
Still enough being made of MJ being a d-bag and into some of the extracurriculars. We'll see where they go.
It's enjoyable but painting too positive of an image on MJ.
Thomas was an a-hole, though as well. Never knew that. Didn't present himself very well either.
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Post by sandman on Apr 28, 2020 20:55:02 GMT -5
Also, Phil Jackson. 11 NBA titles, wow. I didn't think he was at double digits. Legend.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 28, 2020 23:32:27 GMT -5
Looking back at mid-90s Phil Jackson, I feel like David Harbour from Stranger Things and Hellboy could pull off a Phil Jackson biopic.
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Post by sandman on May 10, 2020 20:23:48 GMT -5
They finally touched on MJ's troubled past and him being a d-bag.
Not a whole lot, just a bit.
It seems like he's still in denial of who he was back in the day, though.
The man also loves him some cigars and golf.
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Post by sutureself on May 11, 2020 12:03:50 GMT -5
I'm watching episode 8 right now. One part that made me laugh, B.J. Armstrong recounting when he was on the Hornets, facing the Bulls in the playoffs. He says something like "I knew their system, I knew how I could exploit it." And then it shows clip after clip of B.J. dribbling around a screen and pulling up from 20 feet. Now to his credit, it looks like he had one good game and made a bunch of long 2s. But saying he knew the magic key to beating the Bulls by taking a bunch of long 2 pointers: that's not a design flaw in the Bulls D, that's a feature. They're going to pack the paint, run you off the 3 point line, and you can take long 2s off the dribble all you want.
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Post by sandman on May 12, 2020 20:09:37 GMT -5
I feel like if you breathed the wrong way around MJ back then, he'd take offense to that.
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Post by sutureself on May 12, 2020 22:16:33 GMT -5
Last couple episodes talked about how MJ would try to get Scott Burrell to fight him, and was pissed Burrell never fought back. Reminds me of a story MJ's trainer Tim Grover wrote in his book Relentless. I'm a bit surprised they didn't reference this story in the doc to clear up whether it's true, since it's probably the most famous story from the Burrell-Jordan relationship. If they're going to spend any time talking about a minor guy like Burrell you'd think it would make the cut, unless it just makes Jordan look too bad:
Once during the playoffs, on the day after a grueling overtime game, the team was ready to start practice until Michael looked around and noticed one guy was missing. "Where the hell is Burrell?" he barked.
Scott Burrell, a part-time player at best, was in the training room. Michael stormed in there, where poor Scott was on the table getting treatment for an alleged hamstring issue. MJ grabbed the table -- with Scott still on it -- and completely flipped it over.
"I just played forty-eight fucking minutes last night!" Michael roared. "Everything's killing me, and you have a fucking hamstring? Get your fucking ass in the fucking practice now!"
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Post by coach on May 13, 2020 11:04:54 GMT -5
I haven't watched the series at all as I remember that time. While I admired his talent I wasn't a fan of the person. Granted a lot of press at the time about the Bulls but Jordan's attitude and personality was very evident in the game. Arrogance is a fickle trait. It can make you an intimidator. It can make you a very lonely person. I always appreciated the greats who never took their talent or yours for granted.
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Post by sutureself on May 15, 2020 12:54:40 GMT -5
I discovered Game of Zones through this board. The last three episodes are pretty hilarious. The arc is basically about Michael Jordan returning to reclaim his status as the GOAT, presented like the Night King returning from the North in Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones has faded pretty quickly from the public memory but there's tons of great NBA in-jokes that make this worth watching.
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Post by sutureself on May 18, 2020 14:07:47 GMT -5
I'm partway through Episode 9 right now. One thing that made me laugh was Phil Jackson's pre-game speech when it was Bulls vs. Jazz, stressing the Bulls needed to try to score 100 points to keep up with the high powered offense of the Jazz. It's hard to remember that 100 points used to be a fairly high scoring game, rather than feeling like the bare minimum. That's also why it's interesting to me thinking of Jordan's pace adjusted numbers when he was still putting up video game numbers with high efficiency, despite the fact most teams were averaging under 100 points per game. Jordan averaging mid-to-high 30s would be like someone averaging 40 per game in the modern NBA.
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Post by sandman on May 18, 2020 19:05:46 GMT -5
Finished it.
To piggyback on with sutureself and his thoughts. The NBA was MUCH better when it was under 100 points per game. Games were close, defense was a priority. Nowadays? 130? All out shooting? Gets boring.
Malone and Stockton deserved better. Moreso Stockton.
Decent ending. They did well for the most part. Enjoyed the look back.
I think Phil Jackson needs his own doc now.
Oh, and Rodman too obviously.
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Post by sutureself on May 18, 2020 20:51:53 GMT -5
I felt like there wasn't as much new footage from the last championship season as I expected; they kept hyping up that this was some secret goldmine of footage everyone's been fighting over, but for the most part it was an afterthought. A lot of the most interesting parts of the doc dealt with other seasons and used already available archival footage or new interviews. But the last episode is where the 97-98 footage really shined, capturing all the behind the scenes moments right after they won. Just weird random stuff like Michael Jordan meeting Leo DiCaprio and telling him he watched him in 'Man With the Iron Face', or sitting in his hotel room bashing random keys on a piano and smoking a cigar.
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Post by sandman on May 18, 2020 21:37:29 GMT -5
That one episode where Jerry Seinfeld showed up to talk to MJ... Is Seinfeld even real? If there's a case for lizard people, he'd be up there.
He was weirdddddddddd
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Post by haisan on May 18, 2020 22:52:06 GMT -5
Finished it, too. And ... meh? There were only a couple of moments I found new and interesting. Most of it rehashed long, since overdiscussed points.
But I definitely prefer today’s NBA to the 90s game. Especially since today’s Raptors have a fun style and win so much.
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Post by sandman on May 20, 2020 9:05:11 GMT -5
Lots of drama coming out from this documentary now. Grant is pretty unhappy.
MJ just cares about the $$$.
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Post by sutureself on May 20, 2020 14:00:56 GMT -5
One piece of drama the doc indirectly stirred up for me: I didn't realize Karl Malone was such a garbage human being. He's basically not in the doc at all and refused to have anything to do with it, which is his right. He did one interview with the sports podcast Pardon My Take and it was really awkward, refused to answer any of their questions and seemed super pissed off when they referenced anything about the Last Dance. PMT has interviewed people before who I know are probably not the greatest dudes like Johnny Manziel and Richie Incognito, and I still came out of those interviews thinking "maybe they're not so bad" because they can normally make their guests seem likeable and interesting. But Malone came across as such a massive douchebag that I started looking online to see what peope were saying about the interview. I was surprised to see comment after comment about "can't believe you'd give that guy a platform" "he's a child rapist" etc. I didn't realize that as a 20 year old in college Malone impregnated a 13 year old girl; she gave birth to Demetress Bell who played in he NFL for awhile. There are a lot more outlets covering the story now so this probably seems like old news already for a lot of people on here, but I honestly had no idea.
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Post by Springer on May 20, 2020 16:27:52 GMT -5
I personally love the series. Even though i knew the outcome, i still found myself at times on the edge of my seat wondering if the ball was going in. Maybe i've been isolated waaay too long.
As for the character of some of players: instant stardom, instance fame, instant wealth beyond their dreams, and a lot of those guys came from nothing. With very little, if any, guidance, how do you expect them to react? If, after my first year of college, I was given a million dollars, access to women and drugs, with guys 5-10 years older than me doing the same, i would of made some terrible decisions.
Phil Jackson is portrayed as an amazing coach. If you did a before and after of these players attitudes/actions/values, i bet Phil had an immense positive influence on them. The bad qualities are magnified because of the spotlight, and the slant that media/docs put on them. These guys aren't saints, but they're not as bad as media puts them out to be.
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