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Post by scully19 on Apr 14, 2023 13:54:20 GMT -5
I thought we could leave the other thread to be things that are actually happening, and maybe use this as a place to speculate on what people would like to see or speculate about.
I've said it multiple times but I am heavily targeting Portland Trailblazers as the main trade partner. Look at the 2 teams, Blazers are looking to load up and we are looking to wind down (I assume). Who does Portland want from the Raptors? Portland have already publically gone after OG for draft picks including the Sharpe pick last year. Other than that let's be honest, Siakam and Lillard would be fantastic together as Lillard can carry end game but they can rip together and from different positions so exploit some teams who can't defend both. The other thing Portland would surely be looking for is cap relief if they can get it with removing Nurkic from the team.
Who do I want from Portland? 1. This years draft pick. Portland have openly said if they don't get the #1 pick this year then they are looking to move the pick for help now. This is the perfect opportunity to get another star in the making in the draft if the plan for the Raptors is to tear it down. I'm sure there are plenty of suitors who would want to go after the pick, but most would be trying to move other picks for it, who has what Portland really wants which is star talent in their prime to win now? I can't think of any really and especially none that will fit so well with Lillard. 2. Simons could be a great fit for the Raptors, he's averaging 27.9, 5.7 ast in 11 games without Dame this year on 46/41/94 splits. Portland needs to get away from their honestly horrible dual PG lineups that they finally got out of only to bring it back with Simons stepping up. Moving Simons for a player up front in Siakam makes perfect sense for spreading out the attack and can then take Thybell to put him next to Lillard and have an awesome defender to take all the tough Guard duties. I will say the quality of the pick this year, if we get it from Portland, would change the dynamics of wanting Simons. I'm out if they get the 2nd pick and we can get Scoot at PG. 3. Shaedon Sharpe is a raw player but seems to have a very high upside while being freakish athletically and is bonus CanCon. 4. Future Picks
My ideal scenario = Portland gets the #2 pick. We trade Siakam for pick, Nurkic, Sharpe and maybe some future picks. Buyout Nurkic (likely stretch), keep Poeltl. Lineup of Scoot, Sharpe, Scottie, OG, Poeltl, with our pick, Precious off the bench. Open to FVV staying on and being more of a spot up shooter, plus GTJ kept coming off the bench, partially that they might develop and partially to keep assets that can be traded later for picks or other assets if we want to move that way. We have no point to tank next year (unless it's complete and full tank to stay top 6) so might as well keep some talent (or get rid of it all).
Secondary scenario = Portland pick stays at 5. We trade Siakam for pick, Simons, Sharpe and maybe future picks. Sign and trade FVV for something, keep Poeltl. Simons, Sharpe, Scottie, OG, Poeltl with our pick, their pick, Precious and same thing with GTJ.
Way out there option = Siakam and OG for Sharpe, Simons, Nurkic and all of their picks and swaps they have unprotected. This is almost for sure an overpay and I don't like the idea of trading away OG because he still fits the timeline and is Scotties best friend on the team and is just a top line role player that you're going to want if these other players pan out.
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Post by haisan on Apr 14, 2023 23:49:21 GMT -5
Yeah, Portland seems one of the more likely directions. But now that Oklahoma has flamed out badly, I remain delusionally optimistic about acquiring SGA. Straight-up trade for Barnes would make me pretty happy
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Post by sutureself on Apr 16, 2023 1:44:42 GMT -5
I wish the Thunder had been a lot worse this year, because if they flat out stunk, I could see SGA getting frustrated with being on a losing team, and the Thunder deciding to kick the can down the road and trade him away for more future assets. But the Thunder just barely missed the playoffs and have an insane amount of draft picks the next few years, plus Chet Holmgren coming back (unproven but he went 2nd overall so potential is there). They have something like 8 first rounders in the next three years, and 14 first rounders in the next five years; they seem way more likely to trade away some of those picks to win now and build around SGA than to trade away their best player. The problem I could see for OKC with a Scottie for SGA trade is they have a few guys who are already kind of similar to Scottie, and would create a log jam of point forwards with streaky shots. Josh Giddey isn't as good defensively but is also a point-forward who can get rebounds and assists and is a streaky shooter. Jalen Williams was decent for a rookie but also more of an athlete/facilitator and jury's out on whether he can be a consistent 3 point threat.
I still like Siakam and I honestly hope we keep him, but if we're going to make a move out of treadmill territory I could see us dealing someone like Siakam to OKC for a couple of their ten million upcoming draft picks if we're going to hit reset.
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Post by haisan on Apr 16, 2023 6:06:52 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn’t get excited at the thought of oodles of late first-round picks? On the off chance that the team you’re trading with craters in the future and the pick turns into a top-5 pick some time around 2030. I’d rather have the talent now.
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Post by sutureself on Apr 16, 2023 14:16:27 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn’t get excited at the thought of oodles of late first-round picks? On the off chance that the team you’re trading with craters in the future and the pick turns into a top-5 pick some time around 2030. I’d rather have the talent now. I agree but OKC has done a good job of getting some picks that have the potential to do pretty well, like Houston’s 2024 1st (top 4 protected), Jazz 2024 (top 10 protected), Clippers unprotected 2024 (probably a late-ish pick but you never know with their injury history). Bunch of potential pick swaps and future first after that mainly from Clippers and Houston, basically own a huge amount of Houston and Clippers future draft capital from the Westbrook and Paul George trades
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Post by scully19 on Apr 16, 2023 15:36:47 GMT -5
The other advantage to owning another teams picks and it hopefully working out that they aren't great is not needing to tank. Now you can play properly and develop properly actually trying to win. Downside obviously is you have no control of the situation.
The other side of it is when you are so loaded like OKC is that you now need to overpay with draft picks if you're going to use them in a trade.
I do agree with you however, I still want some potentially good players to root for and watch improve. I also hope that with a return to actually developing players that the drafting ability of this front office that getting a bunch of picks has extra value.
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Post by sandman on Apr 16, 2023 23:14:25 GMT -5
To me, this team needs to make a decision.
1) Do you believe FVV and Siakam are good enough with Scottie to become a contending team? 2) Is Scottie someone you see as a viable #1 or #2? 3) Where does OG fit?
From there, you make your moves.
I'd be inclined to see Scottie as a #2 option but he will need someone on a Kawhi-level to become a proper #2. I don't see FVV or Siakam as options moving forward and you'd be better off trading them. One of them, at the very least, needs to go. They can fill in as the #2/#3 with Scottie. OG? I love him. I think he's great. However, I see his value is super high and someone you can cash in on. I suspect he's still unhappy with his role and wants to be a #2/#3 on a team. Perhaps you run with Scottie and OG and find that other piece.
Also, I guess 4) Poeltl, does he stay or go? He showed his value and worth. I think you need him. Does he price himself out of Toronto though?
How we acquire a #1 option on this team, other than tanking, remains to be seen. Can we sneak a trade in for Dame somehow? Is there another disgruntled star out there? I'm not sure.
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Post by haisan on Apr 16, 2023 23:37:50 GMT -5
I like FVV and think he's a starter on a contender ... but he's not someone you build around. Great to have, but you can always pick up another PG like him.
The other trouble I see is the ages of Scottie, OG and Pascal. It makes sense to trade Scottie for a win-now veteran, or Pascal for youth. But OG is our most valuable of moveable player at the moment, but trading the guy in the middle isn't great for win-now or youth.
God, I hope Scottie gets his act together and learns to fulfill his potential. But I've definitely lost a lot of my optimism for him.
Anyhow, there's a hell of a lot of variance, with each of those options. So much will depend on who's available once the season is over and the lottery is done.
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Post by scully19 on Apr 17, 2023 10:00:01 GMT -5
To me, this team needs to make a decision. 1) Do you believe FVV and Siakam are good enough with Scottie to become a contending team? 2) Is Scottie someone you see as a viable #1 or #2? 3) Where does OG fit? From there, you make your moves. I'd be inclined to see Scottie as a #2 option but he will need someone on a Kawhi-level to become a proper #2. I don't see FVV or Siakam as options moving forward and you'd be better off trading them. One of them, at the very least, needs to go. They can fill in as the #2/#3 with Scottie. OG? I love him. I think he's great. However, I see his value is super high and someone you can cash in on. I suspect he's still unhappy with his role and wants to be a #2/#3 on a team. Perhaps you run with Scottie and OG and find that other piece. Also, I guess 4) Poeltl, does he stay or go? He showed his value and worth. I think you need him. Does he price himself out of Toronto though? How we acquire a #1 option on this team, other than tanking, remains to be seen. Can we sneak a trade in for Dame somehow? Is there another disgruntled star out there? I'm not sure. Great points. 1. I think FVV can (agree with haisan on him being a good enough starter for contender) but I think for Scottie to ever be good enough for contender status then he needs a larger role to be able to develop to that level and for that to happen Siakam has got to go. I don't think FVV is better off being traded (depending on how expensive he might end up being), especially because it seems like his trade value is the lowest of all the trades he might consider and it might not be worth it really. 2. I think Scottie can be a number 1 and definitely a number 2, but as said above he would need to be given a larger role without Siakam here. 3. OG i still think is a great pairing for just about any team, and if we are building around Scottie it can't hurt to keep his best friend on the team around, and a young one at that that can fit this new rebuilding timeline. That being said if there is an overwhelming return for him then sure. I am not sure that multiple Memphis picks gets you there as previously reported, but maybe a top 5 pick from Portland this year could. 4. I'm keeping Poeltl in basically all cases unless the decision is for a full tank next year. Basic math of keeping an asset you gave up a pick for and if the accounts of how bad next year is for the draft i think it would be very smart to send the pick next year and not the year after. If that is the idea then a tear it down built on other teams picks quality and not our own might be the best plan, since we need to give away one and it's best to do that now, even if we end up giving away like the 10th pick next year and hopefully get better from there. As for #1 option, I'm extremely out on Lillard or basically acquiring any star player through a trade right now since any of those with either cost Scottie or all our depth and be out of our timeline to be successful. If we get a star they will have Siakam and FVV and then basically nothing else and that won't get us there. I'd rather go in for Dallas' pick, Portland's pick and our pick in this years draft and go for development and try to get a star that way.
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Post by fenris77 on Apr 18, 2023 2:28:21 GMT -5
The main reason the Raps keep Barnes is cap related. They already have a ton of tough decisions to make this year and next, so moving the one really good player they have that's on a rookie deal seems like lunacy to me. Past that, I think all of FVV, OG, and Siakam (never mind anyone else) could be moved depending on needs and return. I'm not getting all wet about mid to late round firsts, but they have trade value, and having some of them in your back pocket is never a bad thing when the right deal comes up. Personally, as much as I like him, I think there's a lot of reasons why Siakam might be the guy to trade - high value and overlap with Barnes (as mentioned above) being the two biggest. Generally I think you'll get a lot more for him than either FVV or OG.
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Post by haisan on Apr 18, 2023 19:22:34 GMT -5
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Post by scully19 on Apr 19, 2023 10:06:58 GMT -5
Another thought at trade appreciation, with talks of Nick Nurse not being here anymore, he is still under contract and is still very highly regarded in the league. Somehow Glen Rivers for 2 first if I remember correctly so I would think that number would be possible for nurse as well which would be very nice to me.
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Post by freewheel on Apr 19, 2023 19:10:13 GMT -5
Well if we're looking for stars that might become available, Trae Young has pretty much shit the bed so far in the playoffs. I could see the Hawks entertaining offers. Siakam for Young? He's basically a younger version of Vanvleet skillwise and not nearly the pro but if I have to pay for a PG I'd rather have the younger guy and pray that he grows up a bit. Vanvleet can walk.
The Raps aren't hitting any home runs this summer. Might have to hit a few singles and hope they add up.
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Post by scully19 on Apr 19, 2023 20:10:07 GMT -5
So far out on Young. It sure sounds like good teammates don't like him, not just playing with him. Seems like an impossible player to win with because he's such a zero on defense.
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Post by haisan on Apr 19, 2023 20:38:25 GMT -5
So far out on Young. It sure sounds like good teammates don't like him, not just playing with him. Seems like an impossible player to win with because he's such a zero on defense. And if you think Scottie's development has stagnated under Pascal ... putting him on the same team as Trae would basically guarantee a career as a second banana (or third or less).
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Post by haisan on Apr 19, 2023 20:38:55 GMT -5
Another thought at trade appreciation, with talks of Nick Nurse not being here anymore, he is still under contract and is still very highly regarded in the league. Somehow Glen Rivers for 2 first if I remember correctly so I would think that number would be possible for nurse as well which would be very nice to me. Oh, that is the dream...
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Post by fenris77 on Apr 20, 2023 2:18:13 GMT -5
So far out on Young. It sure sounds like good teammates don't like him, not just playing with him. Seems like an impossible player to win with because he's such a zero on defense. I'm somewhat undecided. I don't think Atlanta has been great for him in terms of expectations and culture. That's not to say that he'll turn it around completely somewhere else, but there may be room for a better fit in a different place.
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Post by scully19 on Apr 20, 2023 12:35:11 GMT -5
I just can't see how a Trae Young team is ever winning the title, he's so bad on defense you simply can't recover from it. Boston is doing it, you attack him constantly and nothing they can do.
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Post by freewheel on Apr 20, 2023 13:59:08 GMT -5
I don't see us winning a title anytime soon with Siakam and and Vanvleet either. At least with Young we are moving the goalposts a little. He can flat out shoot and is only 24. Siakam and Vanvleet are both 29. We can trade our best players for spare parts and take this roster right down to the wood. Might be the better idea in the long run, but going that way could be a very LONG run of bad basketball. I'm just kicking around the idea of getting a very good basketball player that fits our timeline. There will be few and maybe not any available this summer.
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Post by scully19 on Apr 20, 2023 14:10:10 GMT -5
I don't see us winning a title anytime soon with Siakam and and Vanvleet either. At least with Young we are moving the goalposts a little. He can flat out shoot and is only 24. Siakam and Vanvleet are both 29. We can trade our best players for spare parts and take this roster right down to the wood. Might be the better idea in the long run, but going that way could be a very LONG run of bad basketball. I'm just kicking around the idea of getting a very good basketball player that fits our timeline. There will be few and maybe not any available this summer. moving the goalpost from 9th to 8th? Nah
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Post by blueyoda on Apr 21, 2023 20:35:23 GMT -5
We still don't want Trae for Pascal? He's not the most likeable and opposing teams will hate the Raps more. But the guy is a baller, doesn't shy away from the spotlight and brings the much-needed balance with OG, Barnes and Poeltl, along with Trent or another FA SG.
Edit: I must add that in spite of any shortcomings, I love Pascal as a Raptor and trading him would be sad day (same as I never wanted Norm to be traded). But there isn't much you can do with the rest of the roster that can bring significant change. (Other than OG, but I think he's a keeper with his age and cost).
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Post by scully19 on Apr 21, 2023 20:51:14 GMT -5
I will never be convinced to want Trae unless he's literally the best offensive player in the NBA.
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Post by blueyoda on Apr 21, 2023 21:28:32 GMT -5
I will never be convinced to want Trae unless he's literally the best offensive player in the NBA. Fair enough Maybe Vision 6-9 will still work with a Scottie move to PG. And perhaps somehow get one of the Thompson twins or Gradey Dick in the draft. Or perhaps someone like Cam Whitmore .... its going to be an interesting offseason.
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Post by fenris77 on Apr 23, 2023 19:04:03 GMT -5
I will never be convinced to want Trae unless he's literally the best offensive player in the NBA. He makes me think of Gilbert Arenas more than anyone else. That's not a good thing.
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Post by haisan on Apr 23, 2023 20:04:39 GMT -5
I was thinking Trae is to Ja Morant as Steve Francis was to Allen Iverson. But Gilbert works, too. Maybe Stephan Marbury.
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Post by fenris77 on Apr 23, 2023 20:49:30 GMT -5
I was thinking Trae is to Ja Morant as Steve Francis was to Allen Iverson. But Gilbert works, too. Maybe Stephan Marbury. In a general sense, a team that has decent playmaking at other positions can afford to play a more own-offense first PG, but the lack of D is a pretty critical issue. Just look at how Philly had to build their entire team around Iverson to make that work.
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Post by haisan on Apr 23, 2023 20:55:32 GMT -5
I don't mind an offense-first PG ... but they need to know how to play within their abilities. It's not 2000, you can't go 1-on-5 anymore (well, unless you're Steph Curry). But if a player can learn how to play team ball, do a bit less on offense, use that extra energy to play decent defense. Trae, I'm pretty sure can't learn those lessons. But it's possible he could figure it out. I give him 10% chance of turning his career around.
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Post by fenris77 on Apr 23, 2023 21:22:48 GMT -5
I don't mind an offense-first PG ... but they need to know how to play within their abilities. It's not 2000, you can't go 1-on-5 anymore (well, unless you're Steph Curry). But if a player can learn how to play team ball, do a bit less on offense, use that extra energy to play decent defense. Trae, I'm pretty sure can't learn those lessons. But it's possible he could figure it out. I give him 10% chance of turning his career around. That 10% is what will tempt some team into paying a premium trade price for him.
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Post by haisan on Apr 25, 2023 21:25:00 GMT -5
I don't mind an offense-first PG ... but they need to know how to play within their abilities. It's not 2000, you can't go 1-on-5 anymore (well, unless you're Steph Curry). But if a player can learn how to play team ball, do a bit less on offense, use that extra energy to play decent defense. Trae, I'm pretty sure can't learn those lessons. But it's possible he could figure it out. I give him 10% chance of turning his career around. That 10% is what will tempt some team into paying a premium trade price for him. And that game 5 is why people want good-Trae. Wow. Just shameless long-bombing for the last five minutes or so ... but enough went it.
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Post by scully19 on Apr 27, 2023 12:00:17 GMT -5
So Cavs lose and Memphis is holding on but on the ropes. Going to be a few teams looking pretty desperate for wing defenders. Too bad those 2 don't have good enough assets to pay for it.
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